Phinneas J. Cornpepper III, Esq. ([info]samplebitch) wrote,
@ 2003-03-18 13:44:00
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The longest post. Ever.
My thoughts on the war, the political state of the world, and the general bullshit we are all faced with these days.

I hope you will read all that I've written. I then hope you will research the facts on your own and come to your own educated opinion on the matter as opposed to 'absorbing' the views of friends, family, colleagues, as I'm afraid so many people tend to do. Too many people will give you a blank stare if you ask them to state the facts behind their opinion. "Bush Sucks". Why?

"Well, that's the word on the skreet, yo.. So Bush Sucks!"

This is quite a historic moment in time and, hopefully, we will not be faced with such a hard decision on a global level again in our lifetimes.

I understand my viewpoints may be the voice of a minority here on LJ.

Don't flame me, don't get all bent out of shape, we're all entitled to our opinions, and God knows there is a huge divide in opinions, not just in our country but around the world. Best of all, we live in a free society where we can voice these opinions (and dissent, as the case may be). So respect my point of view as I respect yours. With that, read on, and I invite you to share your viewpoints as well. If anything I've said makes sense, feel free to pass the info on. I don't have massive exposure to friends lists like many of you. :-)



I, like many Americans, have been riding the fence on this issue for a long time. I still sway back and forth on the topic, to be honest. But every time I weigh the fact, I seem to come back to the same view: Hussein IS a threat, and something will have to be done sooner or later. We're already in a position to do something NOW, so let's do it and be done with it.

Now, as I said, I've been on the fence. I say this because there are pros and cons to what is going on. Pros and cons puts it lightly. What happens over the next few weeks and months may change our country, WILL change the way other countries view us, and WILL have bearing on the effectiveness of the US on the world stage. Due to the gravity of the decisions we will make (or have already made) this is a defining moment for the US/UK and their reputation. I'll try to list point/counterpoint, which is really the issues I've weighed and why I really jump back and forth to pro/con on the actions we're taking.

First off - Disarmament.
it is entirely apparent Hussein does not want to disarm. He claims not to have
any weapons - until they are found, and then he gives some lame reason as to why they were not declared. For instance - Anthrax and VX. They claim to have dug a hole in the desert and dumped everything into it. No documentation on what or how much was destroyed, we'll just have to take his word for it. This is a lame excuse and no one buys it. They are NOT cooperating with the UN inspections, and I don't see how anyone can say they have been. Saddam has learned the UN game - Give them just enough information to shut them up and give the appearance of cooperation. It's worked for 12 years, why stop now?

Second - Imminent Threat.
Saddam obviously has a deep hatred for us (more specifically our Gov't or 'The West' in general). This is apparent in his daily rhetoric, the hatred for the west that is integrated into their school system, attempted assasination of a previous president, etc etc. Do I believe he has nukes sitting on an ICBM pointed at us? No. He doesn't have weapons that could reach the US by military weaponry alone. Do I believe he could easily hand off some poison gas or explosives to Terrorists? Absolutely. He may not share the same views as Al Qaeda, but damned if they both wouldn't love to see the West fall. We didn't share the same views as the Mujahadeen when they were fighting
the USSR but that didn't stop us from helping them against a common 'enemy'. (Nor did it stop them from accepting our weapons.) In all honesty I don't think Iraq has nuclear material, or are advanced enough to provide that to someone who can use it against us. But then again, what do 'we' really know what they do/do not have? I'm more worried about the gases or explosives that could easily be smuggled in to our (ANY) country.

Third - Motivation. Why are we doing all of this? Due to the threat. Many like to throw in the fact that we're liberating Iraq. Well.. I think that's a little bit of bullshit mixed with fact.
Liberating the Iraqi people is a by-product of what will happen. That's not the real reason we're doing this, but it's certainly something good that will come out of it. I have a real problem with us making the first move, too.. We've never initiated military action first. But shouldn't we?
Should we wait until there are massive deaths in a NYC subway because someone used nerve gas? In that same vein, if we knew Al Qaeda had the will, the means and the plan to hit us on 9/11, shouldn't we have done something about it then? If we did, we'd be faced with the same situation we currently find ourselves in: How can you attack them when they haven't done anything to you (yet)?

I am also a bit tired of the conspiracy theorists or those who believe there's something much more sinister in what's going on. I shall address these here:

1) This is about the oil. Please. At first I thought the same thing.. but questions arose and I find myself doubting that excuse. If you want oil, what's the cheapest way to get it? You BUY it. Do you think we've shipped half our military to Iraq's border for this? Are we risking our necks over oil? Do you think we're spending over $100 billion to do this so we can get Oil?
I'm no economist, but that doesn't sound like the most cost-effective way to get your hands on oil. And it's not like we're going to stick a flag on the oil fields and claim them as US property. It's already been made quite clear that the oil fields are the property of Iraq. Profits from the oil will help rebuild Iraq. And besides - we ALREADY GET Iraqi oil. In fact we're one of the largest purchasers of Iraqi oil. It's called the "OIL FOR FOOD" program, and has failed miserably because Hussein would prefer to build large palaces, military programs, and feed his military as opposed to
giving it to his people who need it the most. And finally - if it REALLY was about the oil - we have our own massive oil fields in Alaska. If it was really about the oil, wouldn't it be easier to do arm-twisting here at home to open up those fields, rather than going to war over someone else's oil fields with no promise of positive results?

2) This is about big business, Bush and Cheney Of all the conspiracy issues, this I could buy into most of all. I tend not to believe it though. A bit of background - Bush is an oil man - his family has been in the oil business since it was a business. Cheney is a weapons man. He's been CEO of Halliburton, a major weapons manufacturer. Some claim he is behind this push for war. The more bombs we drop the more money his company (and others) will make. Well - I suppose that could be true.
But I don't think Cheney is a moron. If he really wanted to make money for his old company, would he put the administration's neck on the line? Would he put America's reputation on the line? It seems to me if that was his intent, a safer alternative would be to simply increase military spending, sell more weaponry to our allies, etc. Businessmen don't like taking major risks. Why would he risk his reputation, our reputation, our economy, American leadership and the state of global affairs in order
to pad the already heavy pockets of his old company? By the way, several investigation into his relationship with Halliburton have proven inconsequential and totally legit, much to the chagrin of several Democrats.

3) Bush has a grudge to settle Well, who can blame him? They did try and off his daddy. Again, is that something worth risking the lives of our soldiers for that reason alone? It may count towards Bush's determination in getting rid of Saddam, but not the underlying REASON.

4) The US is waging war against ISLAM Everyone reading this (I hope) knows that to be, once again, Bullshit. However, go to a muslim country and ask them that. Perhaps you can weigh this against the previous three items and appreciate the fact that facts can be loosely tied together to come to the wrong conclusion.


I'm not a die hard Bush fan. But from what I've learned about him, I back him up on this. As president, he's privy to alot of information we will never hear about. You have to put a little faith in someone who's in charge of YOUR safety. I don't buy into the bullshit. He's not perfect, in fact there are some rather large blemishes in his past. He's not a good at speeches either, but a good speaker does not necessarily make a good leader. Bill Clinton, Master of All Bullshitters, is an excellent public speaker but that didn't make him a great leader, now, did it?
Granted, Bush could have handled a few things differently, to be sure. He also wasn't counting on having to deal with Terrorist attacks and other threats of 'ill-intent' during his presidency, he's doing a good job considering.

THE UN
A few months ago, I was with the opinion of most - that we need to do this through the UN. Who are we to take this upon ourselves? I for one am tired of America being the global police force, making sure everyone behaves. I thought that's what the UN was for. A premier source of law, order, and a body that had the authority AND INTEREST in protecting the people of the world. Surely, in good time, the world body (or at least the security council) would see that Saddam is making little attempt to disarm, does not WANT to disarm. Surely the world body would not fall for the same ploys
he's been using over the past 12 years.

As you may know, I work from home, which means I can (and DO) keep the news on quite a bit. I have watched more UN proceedings than many of you will probably see in your lifetime. I have seen damning evidence get brushed aside, I have seen blatant disregard for what is right and wrong, and I have seen countries display only their self-interest in the debates. I no longer have respect for the UN - it is merely a public forum for countries to spout bullshit and pass empty laws that they won't stand up to. I now doubt the effectiveness of the UN when it comes to certain matters.
Yes, the UN is a great body to organize human aid for starving countries, to streamline the research for AIDS and other epidemics.. but when it comes to making hard-line decisions, they can't get their shit together. If the UN was all about the right thing to do, countries on the security council would not be asking "WHat will you give us for your vote?" What is right, people? Why do we need to give fucking Angola billions of dollars for their vote? Why did Russia want authorization
to start military action in the "Stans" (and billions more $ in aid) in trade for a vote in favor of us? Should it not be a matter of the best interest for the world community? Again, it is only self-interest that motivates the members of the UN, NOT what should be done. Further on the UN: The US is currently the ONLY world power. Would it not be in certain country's interest for the US to be weakened by going it alone? Like, oh, say, China and Russia? Wouldn't it be nice for France to see the US
weakened in a diplomatic sense? That was always their claim to fame. What about Mexico? They're on the security council, and didn't want to vote with us either. Strange how things were going well with Mexico until 9/11, and then Bush reneged on a huge immigration policy with Mexico. This really ruffled Vicente Fox's feathers. He's been pissed about that since it happened. Now we see that, because we didn't scratch his back, he won't scratch ours. And why is it that Libya is the head of the UN Council for Human Rights? Libya, a country that blew up a Pan Am flight over Scotland? Why is it that the US was thrown OFF the Human Rights committee? Why is it that SYRIA is on the Security Council, when they host and are friendly towards terrorist groups? The UN looks more and more dysfunctional as time goes on.
I think the UN CAN do good in certain respects, but the future of the UN as a world authority looks particularly grim. Look at past military action... When Clinton decided to send troops to the Balkans, we did that alone. The UN, more specifically France and Russia, threatened to veto any resolution allowing troops to intervene there. Should we have done nothing because the UN wouldn't allow it or
would not act upon it? Where was the UN when millions were dying or starving in West Africa, due to a tyrant there? (But then again, where was the US? And then again, isn't that what the UN was for?)

Funny, too, how this issue MUST be resolved in the UN - but when it comes to the topic of North Korea and their recent proliferation, the world body thinks the US should address that issue by themselves, WITHOUT UN intervention. Rumors leaked that Bush may pull us out of the UN after this war. That may be a good idea. It will certainly save us money, as we alone pay 1/3 of the total UN bill.

FRANCE France. Fucking France. I hope they're happy with the hole they've dug themselves. It's so deep and full of shit it will be a long time before they can climb out of it. You know, alot of people keep saying this about America wanting oil and contracts with Iraq. Well guess what?
France (and Russia) are DEEPLY invested in the current regime in Iraq. France has many oil contracts, many business deals with Iraq. Russia also has a hand in their oil and military equipment. If something happens to Iraq as it is now, that's financial loss and puts an economic hurt on them. Who's acting in their own interest here?
Let it also be said that France sold Iraq the knowledge to use nuclear power which was immediately transferred to making nuclear weaponry. Israel nipped that in the bud early on, thank God. But we can always thank the French for handing out nuclear know-how like it was a 2 day old baguette. France also has other motives in all of this. Take the European Union. They want to be the center of attention, so to speak. They want to be the ones 'in charge' that the other european nations look up to. This was Chirac's chance to stand up and be seen as 'the european leader'.. they sure
as hell tried to strong-arm other countries into seeing things 'their way', threatening to block non-EU countries from joining the EU. France has stood in the wy many times... Denying overflight rights when we went to bomb Khaddafi in Libya, threatening vetoes on many articles that never made it to a vote.

APPEASEMENT. A hot topic in the past few days, but a valid point nonetheless. This ties in with France, the UN, and Europe in general. Anyone remember League of Nations? Anyone know why it doesn't exist anymore?

The league of nations was created after World War I for very much the same reason the UN was created. Keep the world safe and at peace and make sure we all get along. Well, that was all fine and dandy until this fine chap in Germany named Hitler showed up. He invades a country, all the surrounding countries hear him say he won't do it again, and take him on his word. He keeps doing this, no one wants to confront
him on it, and besides, he seems like a nice guy, isn't doing this in a mean-spirited fashion, so we'll just leave him alone. The next thing you know we have a madman bent on world domination and he's so powerful it takes the rest of the world to take him down. So what we had there was a series of incidents that should have been acted upon. We wanted peace, and war was not the answer, so we'll look away in
hopes that it doesn't happen again. All of Europe looked away, hoping, perhaps believing it would eventually stop and peace would come. Not that the US wasn't to blame, we didn't involve ourselves at all until we were hit directly. So here we are now, in nearly the same situation, only it isn't Hitler, it's Saddam (whose uncle was tightly allied with the Nazi party, btw), and he's not bent on invading other countries (he already tried that), he's bent on acquiring as much firepower as possible
until he's too big to do anything about it. Once again, everyone is saying give it more time, he says he'll cooperate, so let's just wait and give peace a chance? If Iraq wanted to give up their weapons, we'd almost be done destroying those weapons already.


You may ask yourself.. "Why Iraq?" Well - he's first on the list. It's an unresolved issue 12 years old. It was the UN who didn't think he should have been ousted after Kuwait - simply push him back into his own country, reinstate the gov't of Kuwait, and he'll behave. We know what he's trying to do, and it would be
prudent to stop him before he has the means to wreak havoc. It would also be wise to put an end to his 'example' of how to side-step world authority. If we left him alone, couldn't these other problem countries see that as an example of how to get away with proliferation?

Yes, there are other countries that could be dealt with, but none are as anxious to get weapons and put them to use. Iraq is first, but I'm positive there will be
other issues after this is over. North Korea is next, I'm sure. They already have nukes, and Kim Jong Il is a crazy little fucker, so we have many more threats of nuclear hell awaiting us when we're through in the middle east.


Well.. I'm spent. Covered too much. Longest fucking post ever. Thanks for reading.. If you've made it this far, I'd like to hear some of your opinions. At the very least I hope I made for an interesting read to keep you from working. ;-)



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[info]angrygoatgod
2003-03-18 11:34 am UTC (link)
I have yet to actually post my side on this debate, mainly because ive been too lazy to argue with people that don't do their homework. And your post said everything I would have and then some. I completely agree. The Hitler comparison was right on the money, we've done this before people, we've seen it all happen and no one wants to take the time out of their wonderful spoiled lives to really get any facts for ourselves, or learn from past mistakes. Ive got two close friends over there right now, one I got to speak with recently and he really does believe in what Bush is doing. Hes not dragging his feet nor are his comrades. And you know what surprised me the most? Hes not afraid. I guess when you believe in what you are doing, and surrounded by others who feel the same you wouldn't be. But if some stupid ass, uneducated fuck up spits on him when he comes home, I don't know what will stop me from ending that idiot...

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[info]angryvixen
2003-03-18 11:54 am UTC (link)
Mark - thank you for posting this. I just wish it wasn't friends' only so I could point people to it whenever they start bashing me for being with Bush on this.

And you're not the only one watching all these UN proceedings. Granny watches them, which means I do too. And sometimes I just want to bang my head against a wall because of how they "brush things aside". Argh. Aggravation.

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Re:
[info]samplebitch
2003-03-18 12:14 pm UTC (link)
You're right - I'll make this a public post...Didn't think about that... And glad to hear I'm not alone in my thinking. :-)

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[info]angryvixen
2003-03-18 02:22 pm UTC (link)
Thanks - I really appreciate that. I remember you and Bill were always surprisingly conservative in your political views back in the day at good ol' Mel Hi. It was nice to secretly agree with you both, because at that point I was too chicken to actually voice my opinions. Now, not so much. :-D

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[info]angrygoatgod
2003-03-18 01:04 pm UTC (link)
http://titaniumcounter.com/temp/emergency/

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wow
[info]mrfurious
2003-03-18 09:00 pm UTC (link)
you've just imparted a whole mess o' stuff upon me that I never knew before. Good points have been made.

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Re: wow
[info]circlek
2003-03-18 09:19 pm UTC (link)
I agree. What I am wondering now, is could this be WWIII? Not necessarily the Nuclear HOlocaust they say it will be, but let's say we attack Iraq and Saddam is the new Hitler...

What happens if N Korea attacks Japan or America for that matter. It is panning out to be very similar.

Thank you for posting all that, because this did make me think about a lot of things.

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Re: wow
[info]samplebitch
2003-03-19 10:43 am UTC (link)
Well glad you appreciated what I had to say.. As far as WWIII, in the case of Iraq, that won't happen. He's past the point of getting any bigger. Right now I'm sure he's settling down in one of his bunkers waiting for all hell to rain down on him.

Iraq has no allies in all of this, and everyone else who objects to what we're doing is pretty much shutting up and backing off. It's now USA v Iraq, and the Regime of Saddam is coming to a close. If anything comes out of our attacking Iraq, it will be terrorist attacks, and according to an 'highly-placed unnamed gov't official', it's almost a certainty.. But a world war wouldn't happen simply because no one is taking the side of Iraq.

Now on to N Korea... I think THAT is going to be even more tense and harder to get through. They've been testing missles with farther and farther ranges - they reportedly have missles that could carry a nuclear warhead to Alaska. I don't think people will take N Korea's side either, as they've burned every bridge that's offered to them. WWIII in that case no.. Nuclear Holocaust is a different matter. Kim Jong Il would probably love to send a nuke to Tokyo or S. Korea.. or both - he has enough. It's a scary situation indeed, and I'm sure he knows we're coming for him, which is why he's been acting up already. (Missle tests, sending their airforce to intercept our spy planes in Int'l waters..)

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[info]oboe_sama
2003-03-18 09:27 pm UTC (link)
great post - i thought that i was the only one who thought it seemed like appeasement from wwii, and you brought up some other ideas that i hadn't thought of either.

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[info]oboe_sama
2003-03-18 09:37 pm UTC (link)
Too many people will give you a blank stare if you ask them to state the facts behind their opinion. "Bush Sucks". Why?

"Well, that's the word on the skreet, yo.. So Bush Sucks!"


http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110003188

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[info]samplebitch
2003-03-19 10:43 am UTC (link)
That's an excellent article. Thanks.. I'll have to keep that one. ;-)

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Thank you.
[info]pickmansraven
2003-03-18 10:28 pm UTC (link)
You have said what I've been trying to articulate for months. I only wish I had your gift of straight-talk.

I'm a moderate most of the time, but these days I'm finding myself siding more and more with the conservative viewpoint(s) because they are the only ones that make sense. I also spend a lot of my time watching the news, reading articles on-line (from all sources from Fox News to the Observer, to the NY Times, to the BBC World News), and form my own opinions based on all of the facts I can get my hands on.

Thank you again. I feel the need to direct the folks on my friends list to your post. Hopefully it will open some eyes. (Especially the ones who hate Bush, and because of that hate the idea of the war vs Iraq.)

Cheers!

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I don't know you, but....
[info]irana
2003-03-19 08:18 am UTC (link)
I should like to. You are in many way much more informed than most people and I appreciate the time you have taken to point out the facts that you have. Just one thing to add on the oil thing:

US oil contracts with Iraq = 1
French oil contracts with Iraq = 25+

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Re: I don't know you, but....
[info]samplebitch
2003-03-19 10:46 am UTC (link)
Well that's an interesting fact. I knew they had deals but never heard/saw actual #'s. Thanks for the kind words. ;-)

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Re: I don't know you, but....
[info]irana
2003-03-19 11:06 am UTC (link)
stealing some of your points (and developing further) for a presentation for class tonight. Hope you don't mind. BTW, feel free to add me do you wish.

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Re: I don't know you, but....
[info]samplebitch
2003-03-19 01:11 pm UTC (link)
Don't mind if I do.. And good luck with the presentation!

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Re: I don't know you, but....
[info]irana
2003-03-20 06:08 am UTC (link)
Thanks...it went over reeally well. Pissed off the French and German nationals in the class, but I got an A. hehehe

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[info]sparklegrrl
2003-03-19 08:27 am UTC (link)
WOW! GREAT POST! I am extremely uneducated about alot of that stuff and your post was extremely informational. I'm going to re-read it again after I've had some coffee! hehehehe

My "uneducated" thoughts on the matter are that i don't want to go to war either however, as you said this issue has gone on far too long and MUST be resolved. If war is the only way - then so be it!

"As president, he's privy to alot of information we will never hear about."

My thoughts on this: it is IMPOSSIBLE for the government to tell the public ALL of the facts on this w/o putting National Security at risk. I am sure there is a multitude of information that we are not privy to! We have to put faith in our government & military and stand behind them 100%!

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[info]samplebitch
2003-03-19 10:52 am UTC (link)
Thanks! Yes, I wish I could be a fly on the wall just once during one of the President's daily (top secret) security briefings..

..And there's alot of information out there.. almost too much to digest. I've just been seeing alot of people voice discontent over where this is going, and a common thread between what these people say indicate they haven't considered everything that's going on, or are just overlaying their general dislike for the president on this issue.

I'm no huge Bush fan.. In fact there are some pretty rotten stories out there, more specifically dealing with my state, governed by GW's little brother. :-) But when it comes down to the issue of Iraq (and other proliferating countries) I honestly think he's doing what he thinks is best.. And apparently he's a pretty religious guy who sees this as Good vs Evil.

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[info]carlen
2003-03-19 03:13 pm UTC (link)
"As president, he's privy to alot of information we will never hear about."

This is what I have been trying to get thru my fatigued mind and speak about the past couple of days. Information can't always be shared with the general public, esp if that information would cause a panic. If the information was wrong, people would complain about the government crying "Wolf!" If the information is correct, the government would still be considered to be fanning the flames.

Besides, what "information" the general public hears is mostly filtered through press outlets. Those outlets have their own bias on what is being reported, plus they must compete for ratings against their fellow outlets for *gasp* money. With all the information that I have been getting, plus what I can infer from what's not being said, I think this is a war we have to fight. I don't like it (and who would?), but this whole Iraq issue must be settled now.

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Re:
[info]sparklegrrl
2003-03-20 05:45 am UTC (link)
My point EXACTLY!

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[info]imprincessapril
2003-03-19 08:52 am UTC (link)
I like reading people who are not afraid to state their opinion, but I LOVE reading those who back their opinions up with information supporting said opinions.

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My thoughts
[info]msmarlamae
2003-03-19 09:11 am UTC (link)
You know i've also been a fence sitter. Just so wishy washy, you've brought up a lot of good points, and although i don't agree with all of them, i'm more than glad to see someone did their homework as well. I like you am a UN junky (or so it seems you are) as well as a news watchdog, i just can't get enough info. You however have a gift for writing that still escapes me.

Great post.

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[info]thewalkingman
2003-03-19 09:12 am UTC (link)
Excellent post. You very eloquently and directly made a lot of points that I tried to make but just kinda bumbled through.

I don't agree with everything you said, but most of it... and most of my disagreements are more philosophical and are completely useless and an actual debate about the current situation.

Bravo.

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[info]greymeowsr
2003-03-19 09:26 am UTC (link)
Quite a post. Your arguments seem sound to me. Still it doesn't push me over the edge. Thanks for making the post. I respect your educated opinion. Tom

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[info]jongre
2003-03-19 09:43 am UTC (link)
Hi there,

You don't know me or anything, but I just wanted to make a couple comments. Hope you don't mind. I agree with a lot of your post, and while I consider myself anti-war, I shy away from knee-jerk reactions and keep in mind that I don't really know how much of a threat Saddam really is. I hate having to put my trust in this administration, but I have to. So be it.

That being said, there are a couple things from your post that I don't agree with, and this has to do with the Administration's potential gain from this war, and the oil argument.

First, on oil, Bush's own EPA has put out a report saying there might be ZERO recoverable oil in the Arctic. Now, it's probably not zero, but the administration's estimates have been double/triple/quadruple what anyone else's are, and what I've seen most often is a range from 6 months - 2 years worth of oil.

If your arguments are correct, why wouldn't Bush push conservation (higher fuel efficiency standards, etc) which can literally cut our dependence on oil in half? He won't. It's too ingrained in his being, and it goes back to money....

....I also believe that there is something to be said for the financial gain from this war as a motivation. Does America benefit financially? A resounding no. We're going to be paying for the war for a long time (especially if Bush keeps insisting on cutting taxes). Do Bush's cronies benefit financially? Well,who knows, but Halliburton has already signed the contract to put out the oil fires after the war. Add in regime change, and there are a lot of contracts up for grabs (after France and Russias are no longer valid), and you know France and Russia won't be getting them with the new regime.

So, all that being said, I'm not convinced that the above is actually the case. I'd like to think it isn't, but I think there is enough there for the questions to be valid. I do heartily disagree with you on arctic oil as an alternative (logistically and ethically), but then again, I work for an environmental organization, so take that as you will. The war has already started, and all I can do is hope it is as short and painless as possible, and hope that as many of our troops come home as possible, and Iraq's too.

Thanks for an interesting and thoughful post.

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[info]samplebitch
2003-03-19 12:18 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for responding... You do point out a few things I hadn't thought of, or just wasn't terribly aware of. The ANWAR issue I haven't paid too much attention to, so the fact that little oil is up there is news to me.

BTW, I wasn't saying we SHOULD go into ANWAR - I was using that as a point to argue the reasoning for going into Iraq for their oil. I was stating that, if it was truly about oil, Bush would have an easier time bullying and pressing congress and any other body in his way to start drilling in Alaska, as opposed to activating the military, spending all this money and risking a 'gamble' on the world stage.

And frankly, I'm totally with you on the issue of conservation or *gasp* ALTERNATIVE FUEL SOURCES. There's got to be a way to get a clean source of power.. We/the civilized world have enough intelligent people to devise a better method of creating power. No one wants to put the money into research for something like that. The oil companies would seek to squash that, nevermind Bush. Bush would never advocate that. Again, a topic I haven't involved myself in too much, but definitely something I've thought about from time to time.

Thanks again - glad to see you 'know your stuff'. :-)

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Re:
[info]jongre
2003-03-19 12:24 pm UTC (link)
Well, it's kind of funny. The Senate is voting on opening ANWR to drilling right now. Literally. Bush is pushing very hard for it. We'll see what happens.

On another note, I just read this on Salon.com. It is a mind-blowing article on the Left's reluctance to want to depose Saddam. Very worth sitting through the 30 second ad to read it.

Take care.

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[info]jongre
2003-03-19 12:26 pm UTC (link)
Weird. My link didn't come through. Article is here: http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/03/19/left/index.html

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[info]lvglenn
2003-03-19 10:00 am UTC (link)
I was debating this issue on here with someone the other day and it occurred to me. I would think that just about anyone looking from today's perspective would say that if 1939 if Britain France and the US had gotten together, pushed the Germans out of Poland, invaded Germany and done away with Hitler that the world would have been better off. Yes, people would have died including many innocent germans, but it would have been better then another 6 years of war.

But, as you pointed out, people back then who didn't understand the full depth of Hitler's evil probably sounded much like the anti-war crowd now. In my mind, we've got enough evidence of Hussein's evil now that we shouldn't have to wait for him to prove he is another Hitler.

Plus, striclty from a pragmatic point of view, it's far better to take care of Hussein now then it would be to wait for him to become as big a problem as North Korea is.

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[info]simplyenchanted
2003-03-19 10:13 am UTC (link)
Excellent points... all of them....as a wife of a former Marine who has taught me so much about international history, I knew much of this, but seeing it so logically connected in this post...was just wondeful. Great post..great job. And thank you.

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[info]chaos_elf
2003-03-19 10:50 am UTC (link)
Thank you. This is more or less (I had to cover more bases, at least in passing) the same argument i gave this weekend at a campus-wide debate at the University of Tennessee (which is populated with more passive agressive pacifists than I knew existed).
Other points:
There are, in fact, many nations completely behind us on this, which few are willing to point out. The problem is that these are not nations large enough to send huge waves of troops, so they send a hundred or two hundred, but this is their doing the best they can to help.
Secondly, the die-hard bleeding heart liberals in Washington aren't the ones raising the stink over this. They have been largely either silent or have actually sided with the war effort, which means they must see something quite emminent and dangerous. The members of Congress and the Senate who have been arguing against this have been a small contingency of Democrats who placed themselves opposed to the Afghanistan action, and couldn't just come on board in Iraq.
Thirdly, to all the personal criticism of Bush, though he isn't my favorite president, he is certainly no idiot. I find it sad that we want a public speaker like Clinton for a president, with no reall attention being paid to his networking and decision-making skills. Sure, Bush is no speaker, but neither are many people I know.

I think that in this whole debate the only people who have anything to stand on when opposing the war are those who simply think that violence is never necessary. They are the only ones that, from where they are coming from, can really make any logically valid arguments.
Sadly, they haven't seemed to notice that peace only works when both sides see peace as the most desirable thing, and Saddam certainly doesn't see peace as too much fun.
To those who just want peace, I have to ask if they are so closed-minded to think that everyone in the world is willing to give it to us, if we promise to leave them all alone.

It is sad that there is such hatred in this world, especially such hatred of a nation that has spent more time and money than any other trying to find the RIGHT thing to do, morally, as opposed to just the best thing for the nation.

Once again, thank you for posting this.

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[info]vanilla_christ
2003-03-19 10:52 am UTC (link)
I too am on the fence, leaning more toward war than away. Still, I tend to wonder if our ever-present comparisons of Hussain to Hitler could not also be made of the U.S. in a number of ways (at least by outside forces)? We do have a fixation with global proliferation. However, I don't profess to be as informed as yourself, so I'm just suggesting... but I still agree with your points, and appreciate the facts backing up the opinion (let's see The Coalition of Hollywood Entertainers, or whatever they might be called, do that).

I have to ask though, on another major side in this argument - what about Israel? Why do we insist upon holding their reigns in cheque? I always thought it would be somewhat poetic to just let go of their "leash" and let them do some damage, since they have the most to win/lose/fear in events like this. The Moussad (sp) could likely do just as good a job in rooting out and eradicating Hussain as half a million of our soldiers.

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[info]vanilla_christ
2003-03-19 11:13 am UTC (link)
Actually, forget I asked... they're already up to their elbows in the Palestine affair, and after the LAST Iraq conflict, probably want nothing first-hand to do with this war.

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[info]cherrycrusrgirl
2003-03-19 11:03 am UTC (link)
yeah,so i dont want to type alot in agreement,just want to say thanks for putting my thoughts in words and then some.I agree.

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AMEN
(Anonymous)
2003-03-19 11:51 am UTC (link)
i couldn't have said it better myself......

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Re: AMEN
[info]mrfurious
2003-03-19 04:17 pm UTC (link)
Hey!

No riding the pony if you're wearing a mask!!

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[info]baj
2003-03-19 01:07 pm UTC (link)
very impressive.

i think the biggest problem with this war is the propaganda machine that adds fuel to the fire.
about the notion war for oil (which surprise surprise has died down fast) in the gulf war america had the oppertunity to claim the feilds. if this was a war on oil then it would have been accomplished in 1991,1992 during or after the gulf war. not more than ten years later. i think people are very quick to jump on the anarchist, npr bandwagon and throw around political statements with no tangible evidence to support their statements.
i also do not see liberation of the iraqi people as a valid reason to fight war, and i think the president would be better off dropping that as a reason to go to war. iraqi people have rarely indicated that they hated their government, in fact the latest is people gathered in baghdad with automatic rifles cheering their leader on. so i agree with you... and if i could suggest to our government to quit using that as a reason for war.
i recently stated in my lj- suddam obviously has technology and probably already has weapons that he is hiding. he has had many years to fully cooperate with the UN and disarm. and if hans blix had found weapons i dont think suddam would have been so easily motivated to disarm. war was bound to happen- it was only a matter of time. and i expect france, russia and these other countries to jump on the america was right bandwagon as soon as we see (unfortunately) such weapons of mass destruction and terror used in the upcoming war.
i do not think america should seperate from the UN. i think after this war, our opinion will probably be better regarded and less protested. withdrawing from the UN would only send the message we dont need to be unified to be a world power and cause problems with current allies.
your entry very well said. sorry my reply is super long haha.
you seem well researched- so heres something that may interest you. did you know the bible predicted the fall of league of nations- WW1 and also predict US withdrawing from UN? check it out, if that sort of stuff intrigues you.

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[info]carlen
2003-03-19 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Got here from a couple of friends' journals, and I'm glad I came. Thank you for a well done post with solid arguments, and no whining! :)

I didn't think about the parallel to the Appeasement of the 1930's, but it comes closer than I think anyone would like to admit. I'm not sure that the UN will ever be able to take true charge of a military situation unless they become a true "world government". Of course, that won't happen anytime soon if we keep sniping at each other. :-/

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[info]way2tired
2003-03-19 05:59 pm UTC (link)
You sound like me!

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[info]asa_dachi
2003-03-19 06:50 pm UTC (link)
I don't dispute much of what you had to say. I'm not heavily in favor of the attack, but... I'm also not vehemently opposed.

There is one aspect of what you discussed that I wanted to respond to...

In the area where you discussed why you don't think this is about oil or big business, I'd like to point out something that I think is fairly significant.

Yes, launching a war is not the most economical way of obtaining oil rights. Yes, the money earned by the sale of oil will go directly to the Iraqi people. But... think about this:

Tax dollar pay for the war.
You and I, we pay for the taxes.
Joe and Joan Millionaire, they just got a big tax break.
Joe and Joan Millionaire's companies stand to benefit from less expensive oil once the U.S. is "in control" of how that oil is distributed and at what price it is sold. After all, we won't be expecting the U.S. to abide by O.P.E.C. production limits and price fixing.
Joe and Joan Millionaire, upon realizing lower energy prices and higher corporate profits (or in the case of the military and oil industries, increased demand for their products or lower raw materials costs), will contribute heavily to the re-election campaign of George W. Bush and whomever is viewed to be the heir apparent to the "Bush School of Thought" after his terms are up.

So, Bush spends middle class tax dollars on a war that ends up benefitting a lot of corporate citizens who in turn relocate their headquarters to the Bahamas and don't pay any taxes... but they donate to his re-election campaign so that he can brainwash the average American with TV ads attacking John McCain's credibility...

Yeah, I'm generalizing, but a lot of this stuff I suspect is at least partly true.

Also re: Alaskan oil wells - Bush just removed some of the environmental protections that would stop drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refugee (or whatever it's called.) He also backed off restrictions on forestry in the national parks.

and last re: Halliburton - perhaps the investigations into Halliburton haven't turned up any mis-doings by Cheney. But how do you explain the refusal to turn over notes and documents related to Cheney's meeting with top company representatives of several firms in the energy industry back in the early days of the Bush-Cheney presidency? It's one thing to meet with representatives of an industry in a public forum to get their input. It's another thing to have closed door discussions with them and then hide the conversations.

Anyway, I don't mean this as a personal attack at all. You provided some interesting perspectives on many issues. I just thought I'd share some perspectives of my own.

Happy pondering!
-asa

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[info]banshee99
2003-03-20 05:20 am UTC (link)
Someone I know posted something about it being stupid to go after Saddam for this reason: A guy robs a bank, gets caught, spends his time and is released. Thereafter, he is arrested by a cop because he "looks like he might rob a bank again...". <-- THAT is stupid, because Saddam never "spent his time". Caught, yes. Given the death and treatment he deserves: NO.

Thank you for this post. I'm adding you to my friend's list. I don't feel stupid supporting Bush now. :)

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[info]baconbits
2003-03-20 08:54 am UTC (link)
this post certainly did keep me from doing my work here at school, but theres plenty more time to do that anyways. i really liked your points of views, and i agree with a lot of them. although i dislike war because of all the innocent lives that are taken, i feel it is necessary to do so in this situation in order to prevent millions upon millions of more innocent lives taken in the us and in iraq as well.

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[info]dragon_spirit
2003-03-20 09:36 am UTC (link)
This is really well articulated. I'm decidedly opposed to this war, but I'm not unreasonable, and I think you've made a lot of very good points in support of it. However, there are a few things I'd like to ask in response, and maybe you can give me better answers than I've heard so far, since you seem to be thinking this through particularly well.

The thing that bothers me the most about this is that I don't trust my own (American) government as far as I could throw them. I believe we regularly commit atrocities against other countries that we common folk never hear about. But then, I can't prove that we do.

When it comes to disarmament, don't we have more weapons of mass destruction than the rest of the world combined, including state-of-the-art chemical, biological and nuclear weapons? I notice that no one is asking us to disarm, even though plenty of countries have valid cause to fear us, and to fear what we may do with them. After all, we did support Saddam during the war between Iran and Iraq (see this article for further information). It is thought that our planes were among the ones dropping the gas bombs on the Kurds in 1988. I don't trust our own government not to hand over our weapons to those who will use them irresponsibly (although, how do you use weapons of mass destruction responsibly?).

And I ask you this, in all honesty, what do you think Bush would do if other countries demanded that he disarm and step down from the seat of power?

When it comes to Bush's daddy being the focus of failed assassination attempts, of course he was! So was Saddam the focus of our (also failed) assassination attempts. Everybody's trying to do away with the leader of the other side, to do otherwise would be poor military planning. So that doesn't seem like a huge reason for war to me either. I agree with you completely on that point.

My main problem with this war is that the people of Iraq, the common citizens, will be the ones to suffer the most. Saddam Hussein may be already dead, but our campaign will continue. We've already killed one innocent woman and wounded 14 other people, including women and children. Remember this, because it is very important - with every mother we kill, even accidentally, we are creating another terrorist. Everyone who has lost a family member or loved one will have justification in taking up jihad and creating terror against the United States. I know if someone I love was killed by Iraqi war planes, and the reasons for this had not been adequately explained to me, I would absolutely be willing to take up arms against what I perceieve as my oppressors.

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Rant
[info]quietlylost
2003-03-20 01:48 pm UTC (link)
Amen.

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[info]raisinberry
2003-03-21 10:21 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for the very informatave post. I don't defend myself as well when I am trying to support Bush.

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[info]butterfly_taunt
2003-03-21 10:49 pm UTC (link)
Although, I was one of those people who at one time didn't like Bush's idea of war, but it would be stupid of us to try and stop now. All we can do is support our country and our troops

(Reply to this)


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